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blue_will 2014-10-03 12:11

整理IDW系列TF生理特点的相关剧情之火种篇(10.6在13楼以及16楼更新)


最近论坛里好冷清啊,趁着十一长假有电脑可用来开一贴提提人气,内容很多,慢更,很久没复习漫画了,有遗漏的情报欢迎补充。

在mop亲友团拜读过JR的黑历史《Eugenesis》,对比MTMTE我们不仅可看出JR这个同人宅男塞私货的决心和行动力,还可看出这位是狗血虐文爱好者,《Eugenesis》提到了TF们的繁衍方式,MTMTE里“神铸和冷制造”也算是一条大线索,因此整理一下细碎分布在各集的情报。(吐槽:追溯其黑历史预计可以达成30%的剧透成就)

感谢ytterbium在《仍然是关于DJD的轮子卧底的》35楼的回复给了我灵感:
“TF的三位一体:大脑模块、火种、变形齿轮——大脑模块:皮影戏/学院/大波     火种:出生方式/神铸/冷制造/法官    变形齿轮:功能主义/变形形态”
原帖链接:http://www.tfg2.com/read.php?tid-48886.html

JR黑历史《Eugenesis》地址:
http://mop.comicease.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=290&page=1

楼主是学生,功课还是主业,学校网络也是有一定问题的,所以看得粗糙,收集整理为主,分析为辅,有谁发现新线索或纰漏欢迎提出

1.罗素姆的三位一体--------火种
最早在MTMTE#3“噬心魔事件”提及,为之后引出神铸和冷制造的火种的区别埋下了伏笔(吐槽:这草蛇灰线埋得可够深)



[attachment=77096]
结果出人意料啊,我感觉JR在讽刺什么
[attachment=77097]


同样的埋线在MTMTE#9~11《皮影戏》也有体现
MTMTE#9
这是第一次提到领导模块对TF的繁衍有重要作用
[attachment=77143]



[attachment=77098]

MTMTE#10

略略地提到了”人口增长计划“,没想到之后一直联系到DC,而且看来余波远未平息
[attachment=77099]

显然,火种与机体有一个契合度的问题,或许关于这个会牵连出残酷实验之类的
举例,纳粹和731部队在集中营进行了惨无人道的实验,但他们也确实做出了很多成果,你用不用
[attachment=77144]

[attachment=77145]


MTMTE#11    跟大波相关的都不是啥好事
[attachment=77146]


神铸不一定高贵(比如挡板),但估计多数议员都是神铸
经典作品《哈利波特》系列就有“纯血,混血,麻瓜出身,半兽人,麻瓜”这样类似的设定
JR是英国人,估计就算没那么复杂或多或少也是有致敬或借鉴的可能性吧
[attachment=77147]













superginrai1989 2014-10-03 13:13
楼主可否解释一下出生方式/神铸/冷制造/法官这几个的含义,谢谢

blue_will 2014-10-03 13:24
superginrai1989:楼主可否解释一下出生方式/神铸/冷制造/法官这几个的含义,谢谢 (2014-10-03 13:13) 

会解释的,正在缓慢码字中,线索太碎了

gts450 2014-10-03 15:50
等楼主的帖子,慢慢看

wogjes 2014-10-03 16:46
坐等楼主的帖子,作为新人还是得多了解

ytterbium 2014-10-03 20:42
superginrai1989:楼主可否解释一下出生方式/神铸/冷制造/法官这几个的含义,谢谢 (2014-10-03 13:13) 

这个……当初我提出这个观点的意思是指:
大脑模块相当于人类的理性思维,经历过皮影戏的大波认为逻辑理性是让历史踏上正轨的最终出路并把这条路走到了极致因而大波是大脑模块的代表。
火种的诞生,也就是出生方式分神铸/冷制造两种,大法官认为赛博坦人的两种出生方式给赛博坦带来了罪孽和灾难,让赛博坦人回归单一的神铸出生是正道。
变形形态和功能主义者就不用说了,生来的形态决定一生,人人“各司其职”,很典型的保守主义者。
但是显然这三者其中单独一种都只会带来灾难,当前来看应该是要三位一体取得一个平衡。人皆可善,人皆可恶。一旦罪恶发生,人人都是共犯,想要取得和平,人人都要付出代价。
Till all are one.
这也是我理解的JR创作的系列故事的主题。
当然楼主有其他看法我也静坐洗耳恭听XD

hay_lin 2014-10-03 20:47
ytterbium:这个……当初我提出这个观点的意思是指:
大脑模块相当于人类的理性思维,经历过皮影戏的大波认为逻辑理性是让历史踏上正轨的最终出路并把这条路走到了极致因而大波是大脑模块的代表。
火种的诞生,也就是出生方式分神铸/冷制造两种,大法官认为赛博坦人的两种出生方式给赛博坦带 .. (2014-10-03 20:42)

总结得好棒

其实我觉得和圣父圣子圣灵也挺有关系的,西方的宗教情节满浓厚的

想起寂静岭里的三角头怪物了,三角形看上去不稳定但实际上又最稳定,是不是很矛盾很奇妙

ytterbium 2014-10-03 23:38
hay_lin:总结得好棒
其实我觉得和圣父圣子圣灵也挺有关系的,西方的宗教情节满浓厚的
....... (2014-10-03 20:47) 

圣父圣子圣灵,是三个不同的位格,实质却是一样的——创造宇宙的一体神,是为“三位一体”。
赛博坦的信仰Till all are one明显就是从这里来的,宗教情节其实一直贯穿整个赛博坦的历史。

个人而言,我并不希望JR表现太多宗教情节……现在看来,尤其是从救护车和诺蒂卡的表现(尤其是诺蒂卡给大家临时量子理论补课+顺便嘲讽英国教育体制那段)来看,我觉得JR也并不希望自己执笔的故事成为一种变相的传教故事。(代表如《纳尼亚传奇》,不是黑,我很喜欢这部小说和电影版的第一部的)
其实自赫胥黎用进化论反击神创论以来,西方的宗教势力就遭到了相当沉重的打击,现在所说的基督教已经不是一种可以统一大众思想的精神武器了,更多的是平等、博爱、自由的道德追求。反宗教观念的各个学科的作品更是从启蒙时代就遍地开花,最近的一部当属被誉为“地球使用指南”的《设计结合自然》。(题外话,暑假在美国上课的时候,老师问大家有几个人读过《圣经》,全班只有我一个中国人读过………………OTZ)
正开始读JR的那部黑历史,也读了几篇JR的访谈,我觉得JR也的确不是那种神棍的作者,而那种绝境求生、百折不挠、追求真理又发自内心的尊重生命的精神才是好作品的核心。
用圣埃克苏佩里的话说,就是“用生命的含义,与死亡进行着搏斗。”
遗憾的是,在大量平庸的科幻中,这种积极进取的科学精神又往往被曲解为贪婪与堕落。(好吧,我是在点名批评《美丽新世界》。这本书的作者奥尔德斯·赫胥黎就是当初进化论最重要的支持者赫胥黎的孙子,他哥哥朱利安·赫胥黎是个生物学家,伦敦动物园园长,奥尔德斯写这书基本上就是在挖苦他哥哥和他哥哥的朋友们的,虽然他自己不承认。这本书很出名,但是朱利安和朱利安所支持的包豪斯设计对现代社会的巨大推进作用却被忽视了,而且这种对科学的偏见还在流行于大众甚至科研、设计、工程圈子当中……无数的疯狂科学家活跃于银幕之上,但现实中,想疯都没得疯……不被气死逼死累死算不错的了……这说来,话又长了。《从包豪斯到生态建筑》有详细介绍这段历史,不过不是相关从业人员对这段历史也没什么兴趣就是了……)
说不定到最后JR会用自己的方式嘲讽一下这个贯穿全篇的“三位一体”理论,你看救护车听到盾子的话之后不耐烦的神情。反倒以中国和日本为代表的东亚文化圈对宗教越来越感兴趣了呢,这就是异域风情吧,就好像路易十四时期的法国宫廷画会画点(想象中的)中国仙境一样。
【一不小心又(。)废话了好多,见谅OTZ

snowman19850202 2014-10-04 06:26
脑模可以修改(参见皮影戏,警车对杯子的手术)
变形齿轮可以更换,(DJD的塔恩)
火种可以远程消灭(死亡开关-只针对冷制造的)

我是热破 2014-10-04 12:13
感谢楼主详解!!

心之龙城飞将 2014-10-04 16:18
期待后续啦

天才女狼 2014-10-04 22:25
好有思想!

rogerdry 2014-10-06 16:14
楼主有才呀

blue_will 2014-10-06 23:59


1楼感觉有点太拥挤了,另开一楼

JR在MTMTE里的叙事方式让我们感叹不已,瞪大光学镜,不要忽略任何线索


绿火种
虐心的前奏   MTMTE#14
[attachment=77148][attachment=77149]



在回顾MTMTE#9
[attachment=77150]

[attachment=77162]

这是默默死(摩莫斯),确实连个正脸都没就挂了,但他死前是那幢楼的住户之一,可见其实力还是很有的(出身也解释了他为何作为议员会拥护霸天虎,芋头他们又为何拿他开刀)

月球2号相关的就以后再收集了
很显然,绿火种十分珍贵,足以让一个矿工改头换面成高等阶层,但一些有绿火种的人士诸如OP,老威,巨无霸福特,通天晓等也确实说明其有一定道理(也不绝对,比如横档,他的火种貌似也不一般)


(累死了,晚安,十一几乎都在东奔西跑,明天一早就要出发回学校了,校用电脑截图不容易,所以下一次更新可能会隔得比较久,等不及得同志们欢迎参与并说出你的看法,接下来火种相关的剧情集中在MTMTE#17~21,30

剧情联系我觉得有《雷霆拯救队》#5通天晓警车对公正女神审判的分歧,

其实目前的两大冷制造出身的主演(MTMTE 夜巡 ; RID  警车)貌似都有逻辑线路过于发达  对感情或者说社会潜规则不敏锐的情况(夜巡在DC里是靠狂热推理摆脱控制的,MTMTE#32也很不识趣地直问女士的私人问题,警车在RID#29也自白感情模块总是运转不畅),结合其诞生方式以及在战时越来越简化的帮助冷制造品适应社会的十条守则,感觉后期会有类似基因工程或者克隆人的剧情,话说回来,逻辑过于发达这个设定让我想起了《无限恐怖》里的楚轩大校耶。









blue_will 2014-10-07 00:03

空一楼留给以后的更新

脑洞,结合MTMTE#30,感觉相当一部分底层士兵都是战争期间冷制造出来的消耗品(MTMTE#5 好名字都被消耗光了 再度吐槽其伏笔之深),爬得比较高的都是内战爆发前(夜巡在MTMTE#31提到其为第一波第一批 ,貌似名字比较正常,且这位在《Eugenesis》里的地位也蛮重要的,期待他的表现;激流作为定制士兵就名字很有特色了)

P.S.  偏见的产生很多时候是因为不完整的真相,大法官的看法并非完全错误,且看开关打开之后,专门给个特写的受害者都有  卡隆(DJD里的情报官和通讯官)MTMTE#7~8的清洗小队(无论再怎么洗霸天虎还是默认反派),寻光号(黑历史一堆的合金盾,现在正邪难辨的小诸葛,和刹车搭档的跑路,录音机实在太酱油不算 )塞博坦(野心家红蜘蛛 机器狗 汽车人的戴笠 警车)OP的团队(老顽固),基本上都要么是敲死的反派要么黑历史一堆亦正亦邪,当然,我估计JR探讨的还是不是出身而是时代推动他们成了现在这样,比如神铸的药王就非常疯狂,但不可否认对冷制造的偏见也是推手之一







superginrai1989 2014-10-07 00:09
又更新啦,很系统的分析

blue_will 2014-10-07 00:30



【还是贪恋假期的楼主不死不休的来贡献近期内最后一个脑补】
MTMTE#5   霸天虎的入党程序  (《失落的秘符》里提到很多社团尤其是秘密社团都有极具特色和神秘感的加入仪式,整新人在不少外国知名学府也是传统)

[attachment=77157]
[attachment=77158]


迅速转换回《TRANSFORMERS》#28

[attachment=77159]


[attachment=77160]


懒得打字了,该段论述直接来自于tf拆卸吧的悲しいホームズ【=L=科普+安利】漂移这么萌,不来一发吗?


[attachment=77161]

前面我提到过,神铸和冷制造的区分很像《哈利波特》里的纯血混血之分,JR又是英国人,所以我就脑补一些身属高层的虎子的标志(漂移叛变前很受威总重视的)类似黑魔标记,是直接作用于火(灵)种(魂)的。


其实在MTMTE年刊里亦有,可惜没时间了,IDW中的各路势力诸如3M党之类的有人有兴趣可以整理一下




机动擎天柱零式特攻型 2014-10-07 08:49
blue_will:1楼感觉有点太拥挤了,另开一楼
....... (2014-10-06 23:59) 

绿色火种用霸王举例不恰当吧,毕竟他强大成这样是后来经过矿物的改造了。

普通的绿色火种的话应该是OP,老通,福特这样比一般TF要优秀一些的程度

blue_will 2014-10-07 09:51
机动擎天柱零式特攻型:绿色火种用霸王举例不恰当吧,毕竟他强大成这样是后来经过矿物的改造了。
普通的绿色火种的话应该是OP,老通,福特这样比一般TF要优秀一些的程度 (2014-10-07 08:49) 

看得不仔细  谢谢提醒

hay_lin 2014-10-08 17:28
整理辛苦了  很多想法很有启发性

辣酱 2014-10-08 18:49
blue_will:【还是贪恋假期的楼主不死不休的来贡献近期内最后一个脑补】
MTMTE#5   霸天虎的入党程序  (《失落的秘符》里提到很多社团尤其是秘密社团都有极具特色和神秘感的加入仪式,整新人在不少外国知名学府也是传统)
....... (2014-10-07 00:30) 

分析的很好啊,这样就能很好解释为什么黑暗之心中受蛊惑的都是虎子了,这个黑仪式留下了后门,黑暗之心能控制住他们。

威威向右 2014-10-08 22:36
顶一个,分析的很好。 原来漫画细看有这么多可以挖的东西,有机会多补几遍

hay_lin 2014-10-09 11:33
楼主有木有觉得神铸和冷制造的演绎会类似《银翼杀手》,《逃出克隆岛》等

hay_lin 2014-10-09 11:39
个人觉得《哈利波特与凤凰社》虽然趣味性不强,但很经典的揭露了一些问题

JR的叙事手法和世界观英国特色很足,楼主有木有兴趣概括一下各类势力,比如3M党,钉子等

hay_lin 2014-10-09 11:57
罗素姆的三位一体其实有很多地方有体现,美剧美漫细节和掉书袋功夫做得很足。

最宏观<社会>:
赛博坦(火种),地球(大脑模块),寻光号(变形齿轮)

范围缩小<人际关系>:【MTMTE#17  补天士回忆通天晓和漂移的那段话很有启发性 】
第一季 RID:大黄蜂(火种),警车(大脑模块),铁皮(变形齿轮)
       MTMTE:补天士(火种),通天晓(大脑模块),漂移(变形齿轮)

第二季 RID:擎天柱(火种),警车(大脑模块),变形齿轮待定(钛师傅,ARC,爵士,斯派克均有可能)
       MTMTE:威震天,补天士不定(火种),夜巡(大脑模块),变形齿轮待定

范围再缩小  <个人>:MTMTE#3  合金盾提到:“变形齿轮,大脑模块,火种其中任何一个受损,会导致另外两个当机。”
                    有木有人整理一下与之相关的种种疾病?

blue_will 2014-11-28 22:09
http://boards.idwpublishing.com/3/viewtopic.php?t=7748&sid=1687824de4d3cce400361342621231eb

(水一水自己的帖子,留作翻译练习)

http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/comics-16/tfw2005-reviews-spotlight-prowl-169527/



As recent readers of the comics have noted, the Prowl featured nowadays is different than the Prowl presented in the first half of IDW Publishing’s Transformers comic run and in past representations. Prowl had a code to live by. Although he may have disagreed at times with orders given, he obeyed the chain of order. His actions were guided by established rules and through the analysis of data. Lately, some of his actions have involved actions of questionable ethics and decisions that seem to go against those he would have chosen in the past. His actions as of late seem to insinuate he’s more likely to follow his own agenda than that of the Autobots as a whole. Spotlight: Prowl attempts to fill in the history regarding why the readers see a change in Prowl. Although the story does provide reasoning why seems to be making decisions that are different than those in the past, it does not explain such questionable ethics as those found in All Hail Megatron #15 in which Kup was rebuilt with some personality sub-routines added and controlled by Prowl.

A majority of the story in Spotlight: Prowl takes place between the end of All Hail Megatron and the beginning of the Transformers ongoing series. Following the victory over the Decepticons on Earth, Optimus Prime struggles to determine the correct path for the Autobots to follow as he comes to believe the army structure of the Autobots is no longer necessary. Prowl, meanwhile, does not agree with orders given by Optimus Prime to perform an ongoing assignment of helping and monitoring the humans while keeping his disguise. As Prowl watches over the humans in his police car disguise, he continues to analyze the comparisons between humans and Transformers by running numbers/data. As the story proceeds and events unfold, Prowl learns that the data may not always dictate the correct course of action.

The writer on Spotlight: Prowl is Mike Costa, who is also responsible for penning the ongoing series. As such, the Spotlight is definitely written with the ongoing series in mind. The events in this issue help explain some previously unknown details from the first five issues of the ongoing series. Beyond Prowl’s new direction, the appearance of Jetfire, Seaspray, and Windcharger are explained along with the fate of a certain Decepticon. Since the story does flow with the ongoing storyline, Spotlight: Prowl is very much a story that will be liked only by those who continue to follow and enjoy the ongoing.

Spotlight: Prowl features the return of E.J. Su, who was the primary artist on much of the first few years of Transformers Generation One-era comics for IDW Publishing. Like Don Figueroa did for the ongoing series, E.J. Su has changed his style for Spotlight: Prowl. Not as drastic as Don’s changes, Su’s changes to the Transformers designs can best be described as a mix of his previous art style and that of the current “Classics/Universe” designs. The end result, especially in the case of both Prowl and Optimus Prime, are character designs that are more thin and lanky in appearance. The update to E.J. Su’s style is refreshing. Along with some striking backgrounds, Su shows that he hasn’t lost his touch since taking a hiatus from Transformers. His art is enhanced too, by the coloring of Transformers newcomer Andrew Dalhouse.

On the negative side, those who have been frustrated with the multiple art styles between the ongoing series and concurrent mini-series (such as Bumblebee and Ironhide) will continue to be frustrated that Spotlight: Prowl introduces yet another style into the mix.

As a stand-alone story, Spotlight: Prowl serves as a nice read. It’s simple and to the point. As part of the ongoing saga, it fills in some of the gaps readers have questions about. However, the spotlight does not fully answer all of his recent actions. More important than an explanation regarding why Prowl looks at the data differently now would have been an explanation of questionable actions such as the rebuilding of Kup. Unfortunately, questions such as those remain unanswered.







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blue_will 2014-11-28 22:13
http://www.seibertron.com/transformers/news/logic-is-the-ultimate-weapon-transformers-spotlight-prowl-review/18372/


“The evaluation is self-evident: one of their lives is not worth one of ours. That’s what the math dictates.”





Let me get this off my chest first and foremost. I am a Prowl S-L-A-P-P-Y. He was one of the first toys I owned as a child. From the TV show, he was also not everybody’s favorite robot, but he did see plenty of screen time, so I felt comfortable having him as a favorite that nobody else did. Man did I hate seeing him go down like he did in the movie.

In the Marvel comics, he was forgettable until the final issues of the series (“An 80- issue miniseries!”), mostly because in the span of the first 10 issues, he and a band of other Autobots were put down for the count early on by Shockwave, and then put into storage until they could be repaired. When Grimlock found the nucleon and repaired all the wrecked Autobots (wikitron fan fact- causing them to no longer have alt modes), Prowl came back to lead the Autobots as Bludegon led the Decepticons...and of course, Prowl led the Autobots into a Decepticon trap that just about destroyed them. Can’t catch a break. Grimlock dispised him as a weak leader as well.



So, I think you get the picture. Prowl’s claims to fame have been...
-right hand robot to the leader
-tactician/strategist
-unfeeling, logic driven cad
-incompetent leader and soldier
-overall ‘party pooper’ of the Autobots

He did have a shining moment, at least in this Prowl fan’s eyes.

The episode Roll For It in Season 1 was the closest we’ve seen to an independent Prowl who does more than think, or act as a ‘yes man’ to authority. Unfortunately, he needed Chip Chase’s help to be this remarkable a warrior.







The TakaraTomy Binaltech fiction saw the reemergence of Prowl as a character, but again, needing Chip Chase as his more human side.

Prowl has been in every re-imagining of Generation One continuity you can name. His importance, as already stated, has never really gone past that of strategist relying on facts. As you can imagine, when the Transformers Spotlight Prowl was announced I was really excited ('Starscream fangirl' excited, no, excited, yes) that we might get something more about this underrated character.

Artwork:

The return of E.J. Su. Through the hazy mists who is it that we see reappear to light our darkest hour? None other than Transformers artist E.J. Su, back at work with IDW drawing Transformers.



“Hi, I’m EJ Su, you may remember me from such previous Transformers stories as Transformers: Infiltration, the hiding, and Transformers: Escalation, the slow build.”




Oh, and remember when we didn’t like E.J’s new designs on our 'Precious'? Many of us would love to see him come back and give Transformers Ongoing pencils a go.

His art does create a familiar, happy feeling to return to though. E.J. calls upon his ‘-tion’ style mostly, and brings us simpler, blockier designs based on each character’s Classics and Universe toy (for those that had one).

The work is gritty, and energetic, and yet, it fits like an old glove. Textures are handled, but not in an overly complex way. The inks and colors work well with the pencils to create an effect that many of us have missed in our Transformers comics lately.


"AWESOME!"

What I really like though are the uses of the large, dark, shadow spots. They work well, and as a style, allow the artist to use less detail, and think more about the inter-workings of the negative and positive spaces these dark shadows cause. It also allows for more attention to be brought to the parts that are bright, which are usually the most important to helping us see the story.

I am sure that the art is going to cause some wincing among fans, but I find it refreshing, nostalgic, and interesting to look at. It has a certain Mike Mignola Hellboy feel to it (with less hell, more boy) that works well with Transformers.

Plot/Writing:

Since All Hail Megatron Coda #15, Prowl has been left out of things. We’ve seen him helping Rodimus Prime’s bunch trying to get off of Earth in the Transformers Ongoing series (wikitron Fan Fact: Prowl got captured by humans as he was baited into trying to save Breakdown then **edit** rescued, in the battle for his rescue, Ironhide was lost). We’ve seen him pulling some strings as a high ranking Autobot leader to get certain people into certain places (See Spotlights Kup, and Ultra Magnus, and Last Stand of the Wreckers #4).

All this has led us to think is that Prowl is pretty much the Autobot equivalent of Shockwave, albeit less powerful of a fighter. Always calculating the math, and making decisions based on logic and numbers, never using instincts, or feeling to make his decisions. Prowl supports the Autobot cause to no end, and really does not question authority, as long as logic, and the numbers, support it.

This 'attempting to save Breakdown' incident in TF Ongoing #1 was a step in a new direction for Prowl. For those who may have thought, ‘What the hell?’ when Prowl made that somewhat uncharacteristic move, you’re about to be enlightened. This story tells the tale of Prowl between All Hail Megatron, and Transformers Ongoing #1. It gives us insights into the character that we perhaps have not given much thought to, or thought that the writers had given much thought to either.

This spotlight also helps fill in some pieces (like AHM Coda did), it is a fairly necessary read for anyone trying to make sense of the continuity that IDW is placing together.

For fans of Generation One characters that transform into police cars that are not named Streetwise, Siren, or Stakeout, this is written for you, as well.

Finally, Prowl fans can feel good that their guy is not just a logic driven, uncaring, strategist. We saw some passion in the Marvel series, and on the old cartoon, but until now, have really only seen him giving, and receiving orders.

In this issue Prowl has some intense inner dialogue where he is calculating the effectiveness of what they are doing on Earth, making suggestions, and feeling the command structure fall to pieces around him. He is caught up between his emotions and the logic, and this is what drives the story.


And then we see the heart in the tin man...

The entirety of the issue is either Prowl ‘debating’ with himself, self-narrating the story, or dialogue where he interacts with others. It fits very well. It is well written, and Mike Costa deserves praise for this issue's success because he is sure getting enough people contesting his writing/pacing in Transformers Ongoing.

This issue allows us to get into Prowl’s head, and heart, and finally feel he’s...something.



Long time coming, long overdue, and well executed. Prowl fan happy. Enjoy.

Check out the 5-page Prowl preview here, the issue hits your local comic shop somewhere near tomorrow.



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